How can you say that you are committed to early years education when stand alone nursery schools are threatened due to the new funding formula. You say that you understand the benefits of early years educationa and i stress the word EDUCATION rather than child care but you continue to underfund and cut the money available to authorities with nurseries. I feel that what you say is definitely not what is happening. The people that work in these establishments have taken on board all of the changes that you have thrown at them and worked with them in a professional and dedicated way, they have an inter agency approach to early years and provide for the needs of every child under the every child matters agenda. if as this suggests that every child does matter to you, why then are you not ensuring that these amazing and wonderful places are not being able to be sustained and that they are under the new funding formula in real threat of closure. This would be a tradgedy for the vulnerable children and families who need their services. You talk of wanting to ensure that the youth of today can become valuable citizens then put your money where your mouth is and invest not cut the budget for early years, our europeon counterparts have known the value of excellent early years education for many years and they do not have the same problems with their youth as we do. Instead of cutting early years funding and loosing these schools you should be bending over backwards to ensure that they have a future. I am very scared at the moment that we are going down a route that we will not be able to turn around from. PUT MONEY INTO EARLY YEARS NOW BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.

As a teacher of early years special needs children, I find it incredible that the government continues to bombard all early years teachers with constant new initiatives without alot of consultation. This cost millions and yet I am still placed in a school which has an upstairs, without a lift, therefore pupils in wheelchairs have no access. I have a classroom which is tiny with 8 severe learning difficulties pupils from the ages 3 to 8. Where is each child's right to access the curriculum? when the floor is too dangerous when wet so therefore any water activities have to be carried out outdoors in the summer months. We have been promised a new building but with the amalgimation of another special needs school in the borough. What will then happen to parental choice?We were promised a new building in 2008, a sight has yet to be found.Speech and language therapists are few and far between, with pupils being seen twice per term for 15 minutes. Many of these children have communication difficulties, but along with toilet training, physio, occupational therapy, the curriculum, early years work teachers in special ed are expected to be able to deliver speech therapy as well.Special needs children are our forgotten children and someone has to speak up for them!

I do not think that it matters whether it is mum or dad who stays at home, but I do think that somebody close to the child needs to be there (when possible). At present, in many cases, both parents have to work in order to make ends meet in this system and much of this policy just seems to be a superficial way of plugging the gaps in a failing society where one has to work and work and work in order to pay for a roof above a family’s head.

As a childcare worker I think the idea is great but in reality 0-5 childcare doesn't really work. If you have babies and older children you can guarantee the babies will take up most of the time and the older children are sometimes left to play alone. Also I would question the ratio 1:3 for babies, it is ok if all the babies slept all the time but when they all need feeding and changing at the same time or if there was a fire in the building it would be unsafe getting them all out if the leader has check the room and get the registers etc. how can they carry 3 babies.

Just like to say that my little girl loves her Sure Start - it's an amazing facility and has given me the space for me to get back into work.

On the news this morning latest reports say that labours early education program is failing,does that mean once again this incompidant government have wasted even more tax payers money?

I think Labour's policy is working on early years education. Sure Start's effect is not yet fully known and surely investing in our children's futures is better than cutting taxes and hoping for the best.

You wouldn't be saying that if your kids went to Sure Start like mine did

Well Tom i am afraid i look at the whole picture at britain after ten years of this government and it is not a very nice place,and despite what is posted on here many many people agree with me,i have never seen such an absolute shambles.

I don't see an absolute shambles, i see lower inflation, lower unemployment, more investment in our infrastructure and a government willing to invest in the people.

Do I think everything have done is right? NO! Do I think that things are a lot better than under the Tories? HELL YEAH!!!

Sure Start Phase 2 has become an opportunity for the privatisation of services. In Manchester this is now a reality. The core offer is about welfare-to-work and not child development. Parental input is a tick box exercise and consultation has been a joke in my area. Early Years teachers are being repalced with 'graduates' who have EYP status - this does NOT qulaify them to teach young kids. New layers of managment and consultants are being created at our expense. Existing volutary groups are being trampled on, quite frankly, as new private providers duplicate such groups. In my area there is actually a campaign to STOP the private sector taking over our local children's centre.

I do agree with josh on that though. Parents should be more involved with their kids learning

with all due respect , this discussion is about early years education not law an order or human rights , so before one goes and makes ridiculous generalisations and sweeping comments about young people and problems with this country or the systems in place just have a bit more inteligence about the opinions you make, its not clever, or impressive. Some important points I think is that young children need to be given more freedom to make misktakes and learn, they are put under too much pressure to achieve things before they are developed to. Though i agree it is important to raise standards in learning for early years i also think there needs more room for other development, such as social skills, phyiscal ed, arts and cooking, all the things that kids enjoy . This is important because it will enhance their academic progress in the long run, due to a positive overall experiences in early life. There are other questions about the differences between private education and state and how these create big social devided in how young people turn out. These are difficult issues and not easily solved, but i would like to see kids from poorer backgrounds have the same opportunities and standard of education as those who can afford the private system, though in the same token for private kids to have more wider experiences of getting out of their bubbles ,seeing the real world like, different cultures and again being able to enjoy life without constant pressures to be perfect and achieve straight As thats all my thoughts for now

Funny you should say that because this party would love to discus anything except the state of the country as lets face it if they were to discus the state of the country you would have no choice but to look at the state of the country and in trying to form a interlectial opinion of the state of the country would realise one thing this country is a 'state' but not a good one. No they would rather we talk about things that will not change the world rather talk about things that assume everything is great but we just need to fine tune a few issues.

Hannah Well perhapes some of us are very concerned about the mess this government are making of running our country into the ground and the disgusting behaviour of many of our youths and the absolute fiasco in getting legal justice,many people have no real way of telling this government how disatishfied we are other then at the ballot box wich frankly is not often enough these other issues concern many people and whilst it is obvious that this is a mere propaganda machine for labour and not a genuine debate as most threads are deleted it gives us chance to let off steam.

Josh your a do gooder. Rod I totally agree, we need more people who think like ourselves. Incidently, Ive had a post removed today. Freedom of speech aye!

How is that a bad thing? What could be negative about wanting to do good? Seriously?!

Labours priority to give every child the best possible start is failing. All they have achieved is to turn a small but very significant group of children into, out of control, fearless yobs. These yobs are then protected by the human rights act. Police, teachers and the parents now have their hands tied because if a parent tries to stop their children the child calls the police who deal with the parents, the parents then wash their hands of the responsibility for fear that their children will call the authority. The children know exactly what they are doing. And probably know "their rights" aswell as most lawyers. Its ordinary people who need to wake up to the reality that we have serious thugs on our streets and yes they are young and out of control. Whats the solution 1/ human rights lawyers in this country, deport. 2/ Five year automatic sentence for being found carrying any form of weapon regardless of age. 3/ Prison sentences handed down should be served in full with further time added for refusing education or for disruptive behaviour. 4/ Limited human rights once convicted (food, water and a bed), you have to earn anything else. 5/ Make judges accountable to the people of the country they serve. Make them electable. 6/ Stop these mitigating circumstances. If you commit the crime you do the time and you have no rights to blame anyone but yourself for your actions. 7/ Lets get rid of these experts who with their reforms have just about destroyed one element of society who have now grown up without basic daily disapline from their elders. One chap said to me the other day. "when I was young even the police man would tan your legs for you and take you home by the ear, the problem now is if you correct a youngster today you either get abused, beaten up or worse and if not you get arrested and charged with some offence because you tried to correct the young person and you are a bully or child pervert". Know doubt though our TV will be filled with news of summits and meetings by the very same experts who have put us in the situation we are in now. God help us because this is going to get worse. Why is every politician frightened to stand up and just say we have now gone to far the other way, so parents deal with your children and the police will not knock on your door. I remember an artical in a news paper some time ago where a British teenagers while on holiday in singapore had been caught shop lifting. He was sentenced to 6 lashes by the state. There was a public outcry here involving all the human rights gang. Anyway luckily the Singapore authorities ignored them and carried out the courts sentence. On returning the press asked the young man if it hurt!! He replied "alot" Another reporter then asked if he would shoplift again to which he replied "not in singapore"!! Point proven. Then you have to look at the real guilty party in all of this. The solicitors/lawyers who line their pockets by turning words inside out to create loop holes for further exploitation to further line their pockets know matter what the cost to society.

Where to begin?!
First off, most of this has nothing to do with early years education, it's about law and order, with far reaching implications in to all areas of the legal system, none of them good. I'll answer it anyway, but it's pretty irrelevant to the debate.

• Human rights is a hugely important area of law, protecting the citizens of a country against abuses by the state. It doesn't do anything between private individuals, it's quite simply about the state (and agents of the state) abusing the human rights of its citizens. This is obviously something we want to retain, to keep both this government and any future governments in check. The rights protected are all pretty fundamental, but I'll just list them for illustration:
  • Right to life
  • Prohibition of torture
  • Prohibition of slavery and forced torture
  • Right to liberty and security
  • Right to a fair trial
  • No punishment without law
  • Right to respect for private and family life
  • Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
  • Right to freedom of expression
  • Freedom of assembly and association
  • Right to marry and found a family
  • Prohibition of discrimination
  • Protection of property
  • Right to education
  • Right to free elections
  Source: http://www.yourrights.org.uk/your-rights/the-human-rights-act/convention-rights/index.shtml
  I'm pretty sure there's not much of that we really want to get rid of, but if you disagree, tell me what you don't like. Remember all of those rights are referring to the relationship between the individual and the state, if another private individual restricts one of those rights, it's not covered under this law (but probably is under others, because they're all fairly fundamental rights.)

  2/ Five year automatic sentence for being found carrying any form of weapon regardless of age
  So how would this work? Knives, clubs, bottles, chainsaws, pick axes, hammers, nail guns, etc, can be used as weapons but are all legitimate in most of their uses, and you want to put people in jail for five years for carrying them? Totally ridiculous. Even guns have legitimate uses - take farmers, for example, a shotgun is a tool of the trade for them - do you think that should be taken away?

  3/ Prison sentences handed down should be served in full with further time added for refusing education or for disruptive behaviour.
  OK, this is less totally ridiculous, but I still disagree. It's better to encourage reform in our criminal population than to punish transgressions further.

  4/ Limited human rights once convicted (food, water and a bed), you have to earn anything else.
  So, we should remove the right to life from our prisoners? How about the right to freedom from torture or the right to a fair trial? Freedom of thought? Freedom of expression, they should lose those too? Totally ridiculous suggestion - those in our prisons are those with most contact with the state (24/7) - and have a number of their rights temporarily suspended anyway (right to liberty, right to freedom of association and assembly, etc). Convictions are so often overturned or found to be wrong, that to risk denying innocent people the freedom from torture would be horrific (regardless of whether you're so barbaric that you think we ought to torture our correctly convicted criminals.)

  5/ Make judges accountable to the people of the country they serve. Make them electable.
  So, we should hold public elections for these posts? That is perhaps the scariest thing I've read in a long, long time. It's completely inappropriate for the judiciary to be accountable to and chosen by the people - they need to be chosen in an unbiased system based on their own competence and fitness to take the bench. Electing public prosecutors and defence lawyers, in the US-style I could understand, and may even support (though I've not thought about it that hard), but can you imagine a judge keeping a trial free from media bias while he's also trying to keep the public happy so he can keep his job at the next election? This is just asking for trouble.

  6/ Stop these mitigating circumstances. If you commit the crime you do the time and you have no rights to blame anyone but yourself for your actions.
  So, say your mitigating circumstance is that you're protecting a loved one? You should still do the full time? I don't think so.

  One chap said to me the other day. "when I was young even the police man would tan your legs for you and take you home by the ear, the problem now is if you correct a youngster today you either get abused, beaten up or worse and if not you get arrested and charged with some offence because you tried to correct the young person and you are a bully or child pervert".
  Policement take children home, put them under arrest, and keep the peace all the time. How often do you hear of them being charged with these offenses? Never. It's absolutely right that the police can't dish out summary physical punishment to anyone, as children are people to, and punishment like that should require a trial, if corporal punishment is even appropriate in the first place, which it rarely is as it simply leaves resentment, and possibly fear, but no rehabilitation. We'd have a far bigger re-offending problem if we relied on corporal punishment, as anyone considering committing a crime does so thinking they won't be caught. It's the same reason the death penalty is a waste of time: it's not a realy deterrant, no matter what some random teenager tells a tabloid as he gets off a plane.

For once Josh i agree with you. The biggest problem with the police i think and as far as i can tell is not they can't beat people in the streets, it's more to do with the reasons people join the force. Their was a time when being a police man/woman made you a respected member of the community, it was about following an ideal to defend law and order. Now it's just a job and a job any one can get. With a police force that are more like government enforcement officers than police. In other words all government want is people to enforce their rules not to defend the law and try to find a just out come. You get promotion in the force for meeting quoters not for being a good officer. As a result of this respect for the police has been lost right across the social and class spectrum. The end result of this is we are becoming a police state. Josh your obviously not stupid i do think you have done what a lot of us do which is in order to defend our own opinion you seek to read litreture etc.. to reinforce your own opinion there for we are all brain washing our selves and convincing our selves we are right. As much as it hurts to do it you should read with an open mind (it's not easy) litreture that opposes your opinion.

Well this marvelous legislation in a nutshell guarentes criminals freedom and destroys our legal and juditicial system,so why bother having one and why bother having a police force because it renders there service practically usless.if you dont believe me ask a policeman.

Well from personal experience i have several times called the police over matters i will not disclose on here,the police have caught two perpertrators of crimes involving theft and one threatening to kill,both times the police have submitted reports and both times the cps have decided against prosecution quoting human rights laws preventing the liklihood of sucessful prosecution,i am not on my own in this experience and police officers who i know socially will openly say how much this act restricts them from doing their job.R

Or in other words, to stop them running a police state.

This is a police state unless you have not noticed.

Well done Josh we're living in a police state still egaly awaiting replies to other posts i've left you on other subjects you don't seem to have an argument to anything unless you've read it off a manifesto.

Just a typo I noticed:
Prohibition of slavery and forced torture
should read
Prohibition of slavery and forced labour

Shows we are all human.

Even know alls make mistakes.

I think we need to look at what is happening outside of school. There are still too many children living in conditions that do not allow them to take advantage of investment in education. If you live in a home where the gas and electricity is regularly disconnected because there is no-money for the pre-payment meter are you really likely to go into school in the right frame of mind to learn and participate.

perhapes if the bone idle parents got work or stopped drinking or taking drugs this may not be the case.

If you had any experience of trying to bring up a family of 4 on a disposable income of less than £90 a week your input on this subject might be based on some knowledge of the real world, rather than bigotry.

And labour says we need foreign labour to do our jobs that can not be filled?

Hear hear!

there there

Our commitment to early years education is a sound footing for all our policies on taking families out of poverty. That is not to say we have the implementation quite right yet. We are currently too adult focused and must become more child-centred if we are to engage children in our social agenda later in life. We need more learning through play and rather less constriction by curriculum.

The new Early Years Foundation Stage that comes in on the 1st of September 2008, is much more Play focused, and is flexible enough to allow children to play and learn at their own pace. It is much less curriculum focused, which is a very welcome change.

I joined the Labour Party because of how they turned kids school round. When I went there it was literally falling down - chicken wire was holding the roof up. Now we've got a new building and a Sure Start centre.

Well done Labour!

Kev Yes labour really have turned kids around what planet do you live on?

i agree labour are rubbish yes its great about this sure start scheme but with more people moving into the uk every month more and more places will go or overcrowd the classes want to help kids try afterschool clubs there not one in the walcot communtiy dome where i live thats why the cause some much hassle round the area or leave the childrens parks alone you knocked two down in our area an 1 of the young people cant use

You can certainly see the results of labours education spending every day or night usually hanging around street corners spreading grafetti or terrorising some inocent person i am sorry but i do not believe labour are doing well on education,ask any school teacher or employer,i believe class sizes are far to big,discipline at school is non existant as teachers are unable to properly chastise a child in fear of being sued or criminally prosecuted this country is going backwards not forwards,recently it was reported that children should learn about alah but not churchill that kind of ridiculous belief just about sums up education under this government.

It's amazing how what the tabloid press finds newsworthy becomes a factual assessment of the entire state of the nation for some people. Isn't a shame that what isn't reported on is the huge majority of our younsters who are well balanced, decent and positive people.

It is not just tabloids many of us are affected directly by labours bad policies and have experienced directly the effects from them.

never read tabloids

derek are you on drugs? today kids are lost, selfish little... god help us all if you ever got into to power. Yours Paul

Yeah of course you are right Paul. I just had a funny turn when posting that. I blame it on their parents, thats where they get it from, mostly illerate wasters with no manners who see violence and selfishness as the solution to everything. Remind us how many kids you have got again mate.

Derek I have children one in self employment, one still at school, he does not! roam the streets taking drugs, drinking alcohol, or smoking... at £5.00-600 a packet? I tell him the truth, a blackboard is a blackboard mate, none of this multi cultural bollox , he’s of Irish descendants, and that’s all he needs to know, if he needs to he find out about others I’m quite sure, he is able in today’s modern cyber world to find out at school, or home in seconds on the net. Derek We do not need to waste valuable time teaching rubbish to children teach them how to survive in this real world. Pauluk

So todays kids are lost, selfish...s. apart from yours ! And yes I know what a blackboard is and I know what my kid is like and what his friends are like and what the young lads that support the same football club as me are like and the kids in the local council estates where I canvass are like and so on. I don't recognise your sweeping condemnation of the kids in our society anymore than I recognise the obsessive need you seem to have to rubbish any idea that seeks to spread knowledge understanding and tolerance of anyone else who lives on this planet. The real world is further your back garden, hopefully your children will find out enough about it on cyberspace to want to be part of it.

What total rubbish.

Derek, your comments are so true, the tabloid media (inc. the BBC) have a lot of responsibility for the inaccurate views people have on politics. If the media bothered to accurately report news and report the good instead of the bad, or instead of mis-reporting it, then people might be interested in voting, and Peter might understand that what Labour has done in the last 10 years in excellent.

I agree and perhapes if governments disclosed the real political agendas on subjects like the european constitution or gave real and honust unemployment statistics instead of juggleing figures,or real inflation figures without taking out fuel inflation and home loan interest rate rises etc etc we then may see a honust portrayal on how things really are and base our opinions on real facts.

Michael come to live in Manchester, dont forget to bring a bullet proof vest, and plenty of common sense you will need all of it, your not even on the planet mate. tours Paul

The media is what the media does I suppose and it is their job to sell papers and to attract viewers and listeners. We (meaning all consumers of their output) need to challenge them to find a way to see as much merit in reporting or producing positive material as they currently ascribe to reporting the salacious, anti-social and cynical side of life. It really hacked me off last week that the focus of the BBCs output on the A Level results sought to devalue: the qualifications; the youngsters who got them, the support their parents gave them; and the hard work that teachers and others in the education system put in to them. As a result of their reporting a time when we should have been congratulating youngpeople was turned into a platform for every cycnical vested interest pusher to undermine them. With this sort of response it is a massive tribute to our young people that they don't all just give up and take on the attributes that all these malign and negative forces would like to impose on them. Whatever party we are in we owe it to ourselves and our young people to try to counter this sort of negativity.

Derek What are you prattling on about, negativity? it’s called freedom of speech. Do you not remember baa baa black sheep have you any wool?? Or when you went to school, did you use a black board, or a white board! Did you have a Golliwog badge? Are offended easily, when did you last take a holiday to Blackpool? You Labour lot are a mess, and hopefully we can dump you, with all your propaganda rubbish.

I see the golliwog is coming back after some politically correct moron reported a shopkeeper in Bromyard in herefordshire recently for racism for selling these inocent child toys,fortunatly on this ocaision sense prevaled and the shopkeeper won,he is now selling loads of them,britain really is becoming a daft nation and total laughing stock under new labour.

The majority of school teachers work hard and do agood job,many of them are leaving the profession because like the police they have had enough of this government and its policies.

Peter's comments show that he needs to attend basic literacy classes, and he needs to realise that Early Education usually refers to children aged up to 8yrs. Labour has been fundamental in ensuring all young children have the best start in life, through SureStart, Children's Centre's and Tax Credits. The Birth to Three Matters Framework, The Foundation Stage, The National Standards for Day Care and Childminding, Every Child Matters and the up and coming Early Years Foundation Stage, show that Early Years Education has been placed at the top of the political agenda by Labour. Kev sums up the Building For Schools programme, schools that were falling down are now brand new, or have been completely refurbished, good buildings, new equipment help children learn better. Children today learn more in school than previous generations of children ever did, it is only fair that the government shows children are valued. The government has placed Children at the heart of the political agenda, however we need to go further. More funding should be available for more childcare places, for better training for childcare and early years staff, for holistic services supporting the whole Children's Services sector develop further and ensure that the UK tells its children that Every Child really does Matter.

Michael the child expert, You are on a winner because this Country is guaranteed no matter how you look at it, to have in it’s folds a class of people who never ever clime to any real status, this is the fodder of this Country, So with this view in mind and I sure Michael is aware of this class of person will always rely on the State, Social services, and education authorities, to help them and support them, now this an easy thing to say I am a child expert, and I help the unfortunate? Any one with a grain of common sense can see that it would not be hard to help these people, and guide them but what we seem to doing now, and what we seem to be good at is making people expert at telling the unfortunate how to live and educate there families. And wonder on how much money, we waste on these so called experts who rattle on and claim every expense to do a job that they say is in the interest of the people they are helping, but reality they are lining there own pockets. Yours Paul

hear hear

Michael Well arnt you a clever little man if anyone needs education to me it seems like you do, you may have time on your hands to bother about silly mistakes but common sense you seem to lack ,a child developes its personality and future behaviour patterns at a very young age usually from parents and brothers sisters etc,and yes to give good pre school learning is important but if you have bad parents who lack discipline and decency themselves then you do not have much chanc e with the child,i did what most of the labour ministers have done and have had my son privatly educated why? because of the total lack of discipline in our schools,because of all the disfunctional kids with bad influence,drugs,crime etc i am not impressed with this government and feel they have done very little to improve either pre school or secondary education.

Well Peter, as one of the UK's experts on Early Childhood Education, Children's Services and Playwork, I feel I am qualified to comment on the amazing changes Labour has made for young children. To say I lack common sense is ill-judged, you clearly have not understood the policies of Labour since 1997, nor the statistical or anecdotal evidence to support these polices. I cannot comment on secondary education as I am not involved with that sector, but I can say in September 2005 when our small town opened an Academy, which replaced the old comprehensive school, the attitude of the children and teenagers attending the new school improved, and last month was rated by OFSTED as excellent, where as before it was failing - I'm sure tomorrow's GCSE results will show a significant improvement on the old school. Labour have introduced policies and agenda's that ensure Every Child Matters, perhaps it is time they rolled out similar polices for adults too.

Michael so can we blame you for the state of our youngsters?

Oh for crying out loud, would you please think before you post? Since when does being an expert in anything make you responsible for everything that happens in that area? Since never, that's when.

Well Josh he was the one blowing his trumpet if you read his post now somone or somthing is to blame for this problem and it certainly isent me now i am 50 years old and despite what michael says far from ileteriate or stupid and pretty streetwise to life so perhapes from a labour perspective you would like to give your version of why we have rude ferrell youth causing mayhem and destruction in this country,and i think the doo goody style has not worked and neither has hug a hoody asbos are laughed at by youngsters so what is the answer?

Spelling corrections:
isn't
illiterate
feral
do
You have no punctuation in the first six and a half lines, and even after that just a single comma and question mark. You never put spaces after your commas, and you've not capitalised Michael.
There is a reason people are complaining about your writing, it's very hard to read.

He may have been blowing his own trumpet, but he was probably just telling the truth. Either way, I was pointing out the invalidity of your cheap shot question/accusation, since you clearly don't understand the difference between being an expert in something, and having responsibility for it.

Also, "hug-a-hoodie" is no Labour policy, it's a ridiculous Cameron sound byte which he's spend most of his time as leader of the opposition trying to disown.

Josh Well yesterday i was acused of being insulting and abusive well just look at you,whilst i submit my threads in between work and admit to the odd mistake what right does it give you a brainwashed puppet to pull others up just because you are loosing your debate and know full well the public at large are disatishfied with your government and the way it attempts to run the country i think i can live with the odd mistake in my spelling because i know that i speak what many people believe to be true,you will never win with your patronising know all atitude wich is perhapes one of the things wrong with this government thinking that academic ability is more important then basic common sense wich my friend you lack.

OK, I was pretty harsh with my comment, but I wasn't abusive. I'm not actually involved in this debate, just yet, so I'm not really sure how I can be losing it. Nor am I a "Brainwashed puppet": I've thought very carefully about my principles, what I believe in, and which party best stands for them, and joined it.

Joining a party isn't something people do lightly, and the few who do it are usually those who have personal beliefs, and really think and care about seeing them in the policy making of the country.

The problem with saying "the public at large are dissatisfied with our government" is that we keep getting elected (which you can attribute to a less than perfect electoral system if you like), and we are high in the polls (which you can't dispute, since they negate the effect of constituencies and FPTP). True, we are certainly not as popular as we were in '97, but to say that the public at large is dissatisfied is a bit of a fallacy.

Common sense is something I have plenty of, and you know so little about me that you're in no position to comment, in much the same way as I make no comment about your own common sense.

Josh Like yourself i have principles and beliefs,i have always been patriotic but now i am furious at your government for destroying britain and creating a monumental mess of most things they touch,i have always worked hard and enjoyed an excelent standard of living wich i feel your labour government are taking away from me i really hate seeing the gun crime,the threats from militant islam,the politically correct rubbish the influx of cultures wich clash with our own,the high taxation the stupid minefield of pointless meaningless rules and regulations and all the other negative changes made by labour,but most of all i hate the big european lie.All of these things i am as pasionate about as you are with your beliefs only many of mine differ from yours in most areas i do not think labour have improved my quality of life and as you obviously do i fight for what i believe in wich basically is a peaceful existance,quality time ,solvancy,good health,good education and sensible law and order,i also believe that people should be allowed to better themselves and be allowed to keep the bulk of what they make i believe that youngsters should be disciplined at home and in school by parents teachers and police and believe doo gooders are causing more problems then good,i believe education should be more based on the three r,s initially and moved up to cover more academic subjects at an apropriate later stage in other words back to basics i try to look for good in most situations but all i can see under labour is total mess things were far from perfect under the last conservative government but believe me putting the two together david cameron i believe would be the lesser of two evils.

Yep, we disagree on all kinds of things, but my point was that doesn't make me a "brainwashed puppet", it just means I have opinions that are different to your own.

Well josh if you want respect then i suggest you earn it and stop trying to belittle people with silly patronizing games.

Well michael as a mere parent i disagree,and yes i am sure the much easier gcse results will look favourable as they would look under any political party out to convince the public they are doing a good job.My grievance with labour as a small business man and patriotic british citizen goes much deeper,i see a totally sold out country being swamped with all sorts on the pretence that labour is needed when it is not,i see a public being lied to over the unwanted european union,i see business stiffled under stupid pointless red tape and compliance and being totally uncompetitive in world markets,i see crime ridden streets,with vile youths ruling and laughing at disillusioned policeman often powerless to act because of daft human rights laws,i see murderers getting off lightly,foreign criminals being given refuge,children shooting each other,a health service admitiddly well funded but investment wasted,i see inner city ghettos and generally a society much less safer then it was ten years ago.I am sorry but like many people i do not see a good compidant government i see a total absolute mess perhapes some of the achievments made are overlooked because of the total awful place britain has become after ten years of this government. and michael as a person who deals with peoples problems financially every day and as a managing director of a limited company wich won an award from your government i feel qualified in stating my case.

It certainly is taking longer than we expected to undo the damage caused by the Tories.

No I blame it on the person who shot him and reserve judgement on motive on the grounds that I have no idea why the person did it or what happened. I leave jumping to knee jerk conclusions about everything to small minded people who can't see beyond their own prejudices.

Derek i notice the thought police have removed my thread because it spoke the truth witch labour do not think the british people are inteligent enough to think for themselves,no we do not know the facts in this case but it is not the first is it? happening very often these days is that the tories fault? i dont think so but thought police are afraid that we might just blame imigrants(and i am not suggesting this is the case or upset the over sensitive idiots that seem to run everything these days)or put two and two together and suddenly realise this kind of thing never happened in this country before this dreadful multicultural experiment started changing our country and its culture,this kind of incident does reiterate my point that discipline and law and order has broken down in this country but children shooting each other is not acceptable by anyones standards and if politicians listened to what the voters want for once and allow corporal punishment,allowed the police to do their job and scrapped the human rights rubbish and had proper punishment for the crime that might be a start.

I think it must have been removed because you resorted to personal abuse. That is pretty standard application of moderation on messageboards. I have to say I feel sorry for you, you obviously live in a very difficult area of the country because frankly the picture you paint of this country is just not borne out by any rationale evaluation of the facts of life in this country as a whole. Murder of children or anyone else for that matter is completely unacceptable. However violence in this country is not a new phenomenon. It is convenient to modern commentators to forget mods and rockers, skin heads, large scale football hooliganism, as Dunblane, Hungerford and many other appalling things that happened in the old days. Solving the problem is not easy and never well be but lurching from one set of draconian measures to another justified by blowing this out of proportion isn't the answer.

Derek I did not personally abuse anyone but retaliate at the same level as the insults leveled at me for example michael implying that i was iliterate,insults go both ways i have survived in a very tough business enviornment and am quite capable of standing up to bullies and insults and give as good as i get.Violence and public order are now worse then ever,and the police and courts are either powerless or handing out laughable sentencies and why because of silly inadequote laws and human rights nonsense and i have spoken to serving police officers who will back up what i am saying many do not have faith in this government,yes crime has always been there but how come the media is under threat from disclosing if a crime perpetrator is an ethnic or a racially motivated crime has been committed by a non white against a white but allowed to state if it was vise versa this to me is a cover up and not portraying facts honustly or acuratley and i am not racist but i strongly object to allowing rubbish to live here that have either had criminal records in their own lands or are just bone idle anyway and would favour selective imigration i frankly do not care if you oppose that view because many of the indiginous population share it.I am not portraying an exagerated version of what things are like but a truthful and honust one or nearer to the truth then that portrayed by your government.

Suffice to say I have no more desire to defend criminals people who are bone idle than you. I don't want foreign criminals to be given right to remain in this country, anymore than I suspect other countries want ours to be there. I somehow suspect we would come off a bit worse in the swap. My main concern is with people exagerating things and running down our country based on half truths and sensationalistic comments - personally I find that the least attractive expression of so called patriotism that there is. If you call someone on "a fool" on a messageboard you can expect the moderator to delete your post, that's not thought police at work it is just the rules - try to learn to abide by them and discuss things with dignity and respect and you might get somehwere.

Derek Most of my posts are anti labour but put over moderatley and sensibly and yet they are censored now this forem is for debate if i am not mistaken so to delete posts just for disagreeing or going into an area that is embarassing for labour or somthing that they want to hush up is not genuine debate is it? if you want post propaganda then dont do it on a debating forem and to delete and doctor replies wich happens here is not in the least a level playing field.